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Wiki workshop in February 2018

Summary by HgO

An event page has been created here: WikiSquad/Meeting/17_02_2018

As decided during the last Crew BW meeting, this event has been cancelled. The organizers are unfortunately too busy to prepare the event properly... Apologies to those who planned to come. We will try to organize a wiki workshop in the next months.

HgO (talkcontribs)

Yesterday with Jean-François, we thought that it would be nice to organize a wiki workshop in February to work on the structure of the wiki.

For instance, we could try to find ways to track and highlight decisions. I'm thinking of the decisions related to the calendar : we should easily find an history of the decisions related to a given topic, etc. I'm not saying that would be easy, but we could give it a try maybe ?

Meanwhile, we could also work on the wiki in general (there are still a lot of things to do). For instance, improve the intro text of the calendar page, the content of the different topic pages, the wiki guide, etc.

Finally, I'd like this workshop to be open to newcomers as well, to help them to contribute to the wiki. Although, last time there were not much newcomers...

I've created a framadate : I propose to do the workshop on 10 or 11 February, but I added the next week-end just in case.

ZeFredz (talkcontribs)

First the not-so-happy coco part :

I'm not that motivated by trying to transform a wiki into an organized web portal for an organization. For me, a wiki is by nature, an informal, self-transforming thing always evolving and, as a consequence, a bit chaotic. Adding structure will just make creating new contents less and less easy (you have to use this template, oh and this kind of thing cannot be here but must be there...).
In addition I think our Wiki is already great as it is now. Of course, we can still add new categories but it's a never ending process...
I also feel that we need to think about where to find what information about the pirates. For example : is the wiki the place to track and highlight decisions ?

Now the happy coco part :

It would be great to welcome newcomers (if any) and improve the current tools. So yeah, maybe I'll be there
Vanecx (talkcontribs)

I'm also not much into working on the structure of the wiki. Currently we're like 5 people using this wiki regularly, I believe that is a big problem, and I don't believe that changing the structure currently will solve this. So I'd be way more interested in the "workshop for newcomers" aspect.

HgO (talkcontribs)

Thanks for your remarks !

So, hmm I do think there is a lack of structure, and we agreed on this in a past meeting (I think we said that at the end of the last wiki workshop actually). Maybe "highlight and track" weren't the right words, but yes right now it's very difficult to find who decided what, and when...

However! I totally agree that we lack of contributors and even users (although those are more hidden, as they leave no trace on the wiki), and that this is probably more important than having a perfect structure. And yes, the current structure is already nice, I tend to forget that ^_^

Moreover!! We could make this meeting more informal by playing at the new cowob from Vincent : (yes yes, he said he would pay me if I would make some advertisement for his website :p)

Finally, I agree with Valerie (who replied by mail): we must still find ways to promote the PirateSidebar and its map feature.

Conclusion: Let's do a "workshop for newcomers" ! :D Let's make it fun and entertaining ! Let's make the wiki great again \o/ (I'll just be leaving, now)

ZeFredz (talkcontribs)


If there is a need for more structure, I think the first part should be to identify the needs and requirements and then to prepare not a wiki workshop but a separate hackathon for the Wikisquad to implement what we want to see in the Wiki.

What do you think about that ?

The i-need-coffee coco

HgO (talkcontribs)

I'm not sure to see the difference between a wiki workshop and a wiki hackathon? But yes, that would be a good alternative for those who feel the need for structure.

Anyways, I see that only Renaud filled the poll date :( I'd like to have a date before we send the newsletter (probably in a couple of days?).

ZeFredz (talkcontribs)

For me a workshop is when you are learning to use a tool. A hackathon is when you use a tool to create something new or working on the tool itself.

Also, the attended audience is not same : newbies and learners for a workshop; makers, hackers, coders, sysadmins... and other people who want to work on the given tasks for a hackathon.

ZeFredz (talkcontribs)

As for the poll dates, I'm waiting for the dates for the local citizen list in OLLN to be decided before answering to this one...

HgO (talkcontribs)

Thanks for answering the poll date ! I forgot I had a meeting on 10th February, and anyway this date was quite close from the Crew BW meeting.

So I propose to do the workshop on Saturday 17th February. I'll wait a couple of days to be sure nobody disagree with this date ;)

Location will be in Gembloux because that would be nice to do something with Vincent's ideas about wikis, meta-wikis, etc.

MediaWiki upgrade and VisualEditor

HgO (talkcontribs)

Hoy hoy !

I've upgraded the wiki to v1.30 :) Everything went fine, but if you see any bug, please report them to me (or in this talk page).

I've also installed the VisualEditor extension, in order to use it with the Flow extension. You can enable the editor by clicking on the pencil icon to the bottom-right when you type a message in a Talk page.

However, I won't enable the extension for other wiki pages, well because I don't think it makes it easier to edit a page actually. Also, templates should be configured properly, and... I don't want to do that :p (at least, it's not a priority to me)

Currently, I have a slight problem: it is possible to switch to the VisualEditor when you edit a wiki. There is an icon in the toolbar that allows this, and I couldn't find a way to hide it.

HgO (talkcontribs)

Oh nice, I managed to disable the VisualEditor for wiki pages :D (so forget the last paragraph of my previous post ;) )

HgO (talkcontribs)

Regarding this issue:

Organise, distribute and manage statues administrator and Bureaucrate and delete obsolete user accounts

I checked the user list, and there is indeed a bunch of people who still are admin on the wiki, but are not active anymore.

Proposition: We only keep as admin users those who are in the WikiSquad (and ITSquad also?). That is:

  • HgO
  • ZeFredz
  • Franky
  • tierce
  • Vincent

I'm not in a hurry at all, we could decide this during a lab or a workshop. But this question needs to be asked...

ZeFredz (talkcontribs)

OK for me

Should anonymous be able to edit the wiki ?

HgO (talkcontribs)

Sometimes ago, I changed the rights for anonymous people (aka those who don't have an account on this wiki) that let them edit the wiki. But as Valérie told me, she wasn't aware of this change, and thus I guess others didn't notice this either.

The idea behind this modification was to make it easy for people to ask questions through the Flow boards (the new structured discussion feature). This wasn't a definitive decision, though, but more a "let's test this and see where it takes us". You can see the thread regarding this decision here

However, I agree that this change isn't a small change. For instance, it would mean that we don't know who is the person making change to a page.

So, what are your thoughts ? Do we keep this change, or do we revert back and allow only confirmed users to edit ?

Also, I could try to find an alternative, where anonymous can only write messages in the Flow discussions (but last time I checked, it was quite complicated...), but then I'd like to be sure that everybody agrees with this. (talkcontribs)

If pirate party have some goals respecting at least it's own basic text, I believe anonymity on this wiki is in contradiction with «evidence base».

Anonymity does not help transparency on this particular platform.

Example ... who am I who posted this message?

Using nicknames is already «something» for the none experimented user. Using bots and sockpuppet even more confusing, even if bots are useful for wiki maintenance and improvements.

So I suggest we keep registration mandatory for this wiki and if «pirates» are not willing to provide their email address to receive an activation link because they «wish to stay under the radar» there are probably other ways to create and validate some accounts, a least through the user table on the database directly.

This is my personal point of view.

Vanecx (talkcontribs)

(I think it's remarkable that HgO uses an anonymous account to have a debate with himself).

I also agree anonymity does not bring added value to the debate. Furthermore, if someone anonymously posts something on the wiki that goes clearly against our values, what would we do about it, as we're practically unable to have a conversation with that person to solve the problem.

Finally, it might also be a source of confusion : if I'm not logged in (because I'm using another computer/browser or my cookies are deleted), I might make (several) edits without even noticing I'm currently anonymous.

HgO (talkcontribs)
(I think it's remarkable that HgO uses an anonymous account to have a debate with himself).

Come on, everybody knows it's tierce ! :D

(I agree with what has been said so far, except with the first line of Renaud's message)

ZeFredz (talkcontribs)

For my part I think the Wiki of the Pirate Party is not the Wikipedia, so I'm not sure to see why anonymous edition is needed here. It's a cooperative tool for the Pirates, not for the whole planet.

So I'm in favor of keeping registration mandatory on the Wiki.

Vanecx (talkcontribs)

Until the whole world becomes pirates.

HgO (talkcontribs)

Just to balance, we can be anonymous in the pads, and yet this doesn't seem to be a real problem ^^

ZeFredz (talkcontribs)

Yes, but pads are not indexed by any search engine and have a javascript UI. It's not the case for Wiki, and I'm concerned about spamming bots (I hope the protection is strong).

In the past I have lost some contents on a Wiki because of spamming bots.

Also, we need to have a reliable notification system to monitor page changes if anonymous can edit the wiki... and it's not the case at this time (since you'll have to go back to a watched page to receive further notifications).

On Wikipedia, they used (I don't know if it's still the case) an IRC channel to monitor all the changes made to the pages. This takes time.

As for the pad, anonymity can be useful, but when co-creating something, this can be really annoying not to know who has done what : a lot of "Auteur inconnu" on the pads (see my mails on the mailing list for the OLLN citizen list about this issue).

HgO (talkcontribs)
It's not the case for Wiki, and I'm concerned about spamming bots (I hope the protection is strong).

The protection is the same as the one used for registrations, so I wouldn't worry much about this. Because if a spamming bots can edit the wiki anonymously, it could also register to edit the wiki...

Valerie (talkcontribs)

Basically pads and wiki have a different purpose. Anonymity is a problem on the wiki as the wiki holds the building blocks and are our history.

HgO (talkcontribs)

So, I think the decision is clear about anonymous modifications on the wiki.

Now, regarding my question on whether we allow anonynous people to post on the Flow boards or not, I really think this could be useful : for instance, someone wants to ask a question but is a complete noob. In short, I had the idea that Flow discussions could be an alternative to pads as a discussion tool.

ZeFredz (talkcontribs)

OK for the flow discussion as long as there are people to answer on it :)

Ilja (talkcontribs)

What HgO said in his last post (which was also the reason why the anonymous editing was enabled in the first place)

HgO (talkcontribs)

Ok, I made the change : anonymous cannot edit the wiki (as this was the case before).

I'll look for a solution to let anonymous post on the Flow boards, when I have time ^^

Flow : Structured Discussion

HgO (talkcontribs)

So, as decided during the ITSquad meeting, I enabled Flow on new talk pages. I also converted this WikiSquad talk page to Flow, and the archives can be found there. If you find topics that were still ongoing, please do start a new flow thread :)

Extension : export page to .odt or .pdf

HgO (talkcontribs)

There was a ongoing thread on the archived talk page:

"Many groups that work with meeting reports usually have these meeting reports in a document (usually a MS Word file). So the switch from that usage to our wiki-oriented usage might be annoying for them. And it's quite annoying to just upload documents on the wiki as they are not very usable (searchable, editable...). So I was wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to install an export extension, so that people who want to read a meeting report (in a document that can be read offline) just have to export a page in such a readable format. This way we keep the content on the wiki and offer more comfort to the users who are not hardcore wiki users. There is this extension or this one or that one. --Vanecx (talk) 15:11, 23 October 2017 (CEST)

I thought you were asking to import an .odt file so that it is converted into a wiki page :p That would be an interesting feature to have.
Anyways, regarding your request, note that there is a Firefox extension that does a nice job ;) I'm not against installing one of these extensions (probably the latter because it is marked as stable), but I'd need to test them, etc. So this might take some time ^^ --HgO (talk) 15:18, 23 October 2017 (CEST)"
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