Talk:Welcome/Guide

Welcome on the discussion page! Let's try and improve the "guide" together. Be aware that this is supposed to be a brief general introduction, part of the whole "Welcome" page, not an exhaustive help on itself. So think about: what would I need/like to know about the pirate party when I am new here?

Problems on the page

The link to https://pirateparty.be/finance is dead? Is there a new one?

There it is https://finance.partipirate.be --Tierce (talk) 07:43, 20 April 2017 (CEST)

Thank you. The list has not been updated since more than a year? --Seb (talk) 12:37, 21 April 2017 (CEST)

What I think is currently missing

• Schematic of the structure (showing pirates, crews, meetings, ... in a graphical way. --Valerie (talk) 22:15, 30 October 2016 (CET) Working on it.--Valerie (talk) 20:28, 15 January 2017 (CET)

What I think should move

• The glossary could be moved to a dedicated page of the Welcome section. --Valerie (talk) 22:15, 30 October 2016 (CET)

What I disagree with, and should be changed

Under the section 'Les outils en ligne / Online tools' we have 'Engueulades / Scheldpartijen'. Although I can't say that what is said here about the FB-group isn't true, posting this in a welcome seems far from being positive (or constructive) :/ (or maybe the Dutch version just sound harsher than the French one?).
Since it is a tool that is used, I think it should be there, but maybe under a different title and a different description. I'll think about what I can do to give a more proper (positive?) description.
For now I will put it in commentary, so that it is not lost, but also not visible (I like to give the link to this page to people already, because I think, even though it is not finished, it's a good description of the pirates). --Ilja (talk) 18:28, 7 December 2016 (CET)

This part sounds as harsh in French ;) This guide was written as a personal opinion, but then we decided to use it for a broader usage. I have the same opinion on Facebook, though, so I don't think this should be completely removed. However, I agree that we should try to make it sounds less harsh, because it might frustrate people using Facebook, which isn't the purpose here :) I would like that they realize that this "tool" has a lot of negative points, and not everybody agrees to work there. --HgO (talk) 18:36, 7 December 2016 (CET)

I've changed and elaborated a bit :) This is the English translation:

Informal on-line get-together: There is a closed Facebook-group Belgian Pirates United. Here people post and share mostly as they please. This can be anything and is not being moderated. Often interesting articles are being shared, questions are being asked, remarks or notifications are being given, an occasional FB-poll... But sometimes, it's also used to express frustrations which, sadly enough, can cause a snowball-effect of misunderstandings or further frustrations. When this happens it's recommended to let a reply simmer for an hour or so before posting, wich is, of course, always a good idea when communicating on-line. For a lot of people this group is the first encounter to a more interior side of the pirates. Therefore, it's always important to realise that the pirates are much more than just this group (some of us don't even have a Facebook-account and so, are not in this group). To really accomplish things, Facebook just isn't the right tool, which is the reason why we have other tools available, like loomio, pirate labs and squads.

So, what does everybody think? ^^ I'm not so sure about the title, but it was the best I could come up with :p --Ilja (talk) 20:41, 8 December 2016 (CET)

I like it! --Vincent L. (talk) 11:49, 9 December 2016 (CET)

Very nice work :) I will translate it in French ;) --HgO (talk) 12:38, 10 December 2016 (CET)

Hey, normally the French version was written in a somewhat sarcastic tone (as Hgo explained, it was a blog post initially). Since that is tricky to get through, I agree for a change. Your text is nice, but maybe a bit longish? But you can go ahead and change. Thanks for the work! --Valerie (talk) 14:41, 21 December 2016 (CET)

On the use of "anarchy" word

(edit from Jonathan F.)Thanks and it's a good guide, congrats for the work. I've just some points that I'd like to discuss with you. I'm not agree with using words "anarchie" or "radical" for Pirate Members. On the page : I read "Les pirates sont souvent des anarchistes qui s’ignorent." or "De piraten zijn vaak anarchisten die anderen negeren." I think that should be erase. I guess that a lot of Pirates are not anarchist or radical (I'm not at all), putting this in the text (for anarchist) open the door that all Pirate are. If Pirate is an anarchist or radical party, it should be noted clearly, if not, these words should not be use to talking about the party or the members.

Hello ! I'm not sure to see the problem here. We are not saying that all pirates are anarchists, but that most of them are. It's okay if you don't consider yourself as an anarchist :) I think that the problem is that you don't know what the exact definition of anarchy is (although I might be wrong, in that case I apologize for that) :/

Now, I'm a bit puzzled because you are asking us to remove a word for no clear reason. May I ask in the name of what should we remove the word anarchy ? Is this because it is a bad thing to be viewed as anarchist by people ? I don't really care if people don't know what anarchist does mean, and I won't adapt myself to their view, otherwise I wouldn't be in this party :p Anyway, when you look at the pirate's philosophy, you can see clear similiraties with anarchy movements. The horizontal structure is one of them.--HgO (talk) 22:19, 4 January 2017 (CET)

May I suggest to put a link? «Les pirates sont souvent des anarchistes qui s’ignorent.» and «De piraten zijn vaak anarchisten die anderen negeren». to invite the visitors to read more about a soooo miss understood scary word?

Maybe replace souvent by parfois and vaak par soms?--Tierce (talk) 20:58, 8 January 2017 (CET)

I like the idea of the link. As for the change between parfois and souvent, why not... I don't have statistics anyway ;-).--Valerie (talk) 20:32, 10 January 2017 (CET)

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I agree on putting a link to the definition of anarchy :) As Valerie, I don't have any stats about the number of pirates who define themselves as anarchists... One solution would be to ask on the Facebook group? But that wouldn't hide the fact that many pirates act and think as anarchists would do, and that our values match those of anarchy movements. In several countries, I've seen that pirates are categorized as libertarian, which is close to anarchists (I'm not an expert in that field, though, so I might be wrong). --HgO (talk) 22:08, 10 January 2017 (CET)

Modification applied. --Valerie (talk) 20:46, 15 January 2017 (CET)

In the same line "La centralisation suppose la mise en place d’une hiérarchie, ce à quoi les pirates sont majoritairement allergiques." but it is noted later "Une crew a souvent un·e capitaine (porte-parole, leader) et un·e navigateur·rice (secrétaire) mais chacune peut s’organiser comme elle l’entend." The first sentence means that the members don't want a hierarchy, the second sentence affirm that a hierarchy is there. I think that hierarchy should be organize, but differently than in the current other parties, so I'll will change the first sentence.

Being anarchists doesn't mean that we wan't chaos. We all know that a certain kind of hierarchy is necessary to work together. However, here we are talking about horizontal hierarchy. In practice, this means that crews are the central point of the party, instead of an executive group in other parties. We can also note that power comes from pirates above all, and this is represented by the "three pirates law" which says that you don't necessary need to be in a crew to take actions in the name of the party. You just need to find two other pirates and that's it.

Besides, please note that some crews don't have a captain or navigator, because they find that unnecessary. This is the case of Crew Bw for instance.--HgO (talk) 22:19, 4 January 2017 (CET)

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Je crois que "Les pirates sont souvent des anarchistes qui s’ignorent." peut être remplacé par "une partie des pirates se considèrent comme anarchistes. N'ayez pas peur, ce sont des gens tout à fait organisés, serviables et ouverts au dialogue, et ils se feront un plaisir de vous expliquer ce que cela signifie pour eux" --Vincent L. (talk) 11:18, 5 January 2017 (CET)

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Je ne sais psa si nous sommes tous très organisés :p Mais à mon sens, on déplace le problème en partant du principe qu'être anarchiste c'est mal. Je préfère mettre un lien comme Thierry le propose ;) Peut-être pouvons-nous rajouter « Les pirates sont souvent des anarchistes qui s'ignorent (ce qui n'est pas forcément une mauvaise chose) » --HgO (talk) 22:08, 10 January 2017 (CET)

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Indeed HgO, the text does not say that the pirate party is an anarchist party, but that some pirates are. But the reaction of Jonathan suggests we may need to change the text, something tasting a bit like what Vincent L. is suggesting?

Same thing for the captain/navigator, that are not about hierarchy but organisation. And contrarily to what the "captain" word suggests, there is no boss. We should add that these roles are to be changed regularly, actually. We could rephrase to make it clearer. How does that sound? --Valerie (talk) 20:18, 6 January 2017 (CET)

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Yes, I would love some precisions about the captain/navigator words, since they imply some vertical hierarchy. A captain does not have more rights than any other pirates. It's actually cumbersome to be a navigator or a captain, since you have more responsabilities (which don't especially come with great powers...)

I'd really like to hear what Jonathan thinks about all this, and if what is suggested suit him or not :) --HgO (talk) 22:08, 10 January 2017 (CET)

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No reply yet from Jonathan but the changes discussed above were applied. --Valerie (talk) 20:46, 15 January 2017 (CET)

Eeerrr I don't know how to write inside a wiki...

Then feel free to write directly in this pad (but beware that if you change something to a pad, no one is notified about it).

Direct link: https://pad.pirateparty.be/p/Pirates-be-survival-guide